Yes but... LA... it's happening every night with every judging panel everywhere.

To say that it is Ridiculous... well okay... it's ridiculous (ridiculously good apparently).

But to say that it is undeserved IS an allegation of conspiracy.

This scoring margin isn't isolated. If it were an isolated instance, then you may have something to stand on. What the judges are saying is that Crown is not BD's closest competition.

And the reality is that maybe nobody is their closest competition this year... nobody has to be. There doesn't have to be a 2nd place that is within a set margin of loss. If there can be a scoring gap of a point in a caption between places 6 and 7 (and that has happened many times), then why not between place 1 and 2?

Nobody has to like the show (obviously very few people do). That doesn't make a score undeserved.

What place and what score should the program be?

Can somebody give a judging perspective on one judging category alone... indicating all of the detail (from visual and audio experience in the judging stand or on the field through the full duration of two competitive shows and explain why BD is being unfairly posted ahead from the others?

Does anybody have that perspective out there?... anybody on the forum?

The answer is NO. We only have the audience perspective... and it is a total package perspective... missing details and incomplete.

Or, they could be giving the scores that they feel are deserved. It's funny, this is the first time I can ever remember BD's scores being criticized for being too high, except every year since 1978...

Why yes we can. The drum score for Crown sticks out like a sore thumb from last night. There isn't any data to support. None whatsoever. The problems are serious and immediately evident. The writing and execution put it in the lower portion of the top 12 at best, although I doubt the field drums could attempt Academy's book. Certainly not Santa Clara's. Is my point to slant the hallowed Jeff Prosperie? Nope. He knows the difference better than I do.

The judging just isn't objective or consistent throughout. It's largely political these days. Do I care and whats the difference? I am giving up on caring. Cuz ain't a thing I can do about it other than observe and point out whats on or will be on audio and video as far as the shows when the DVDs come out. Who comes in first matters and who makes that 12th spot matters to - kinda exciting - other than that --doesn't really matter as far as scores and placement.

The Cavaliers show brought me out of my seat - totally exciting as a complete show - that hasn't happened in quite a while.

Thank you!

I don't recall a year when the Devils were successful where there wasn't a good size following on the m-boards and forums saying that they didn't deserve it.

I remember sitting at a show a few years ago and when the Devils were done performing... this guy behind me outburst his innermost thoughts and said... "ugh... they're so arrogant!"

And I was sitting there thinking 'what is the deal with this drumcorps and the vibe that people get from them? They don't make statements. They tend to be a pleasant organization to be around (both the kids and the staff)... I can't say the same about some other corps... They just come out and perform the show that was written for them... and they do it super clean more consistently than most others. How is that "arrogant"?'

I think that people just are tired of them having won so much more then everybody else... playing music presenting a style that really has never been the "wind ensemble" type... and executing drill that really has never reflected the forever coveted quintessential form-guiding drill of George Zingali.

How dare they!!!! Ugh... they're so arrogant!




Hey I want them to get beat as much as anybody else.... I would REALLY like it if the Bluecoats did it... but so far, it doesn't look like these other shows are hitting the right nerves and presenting the best technical feet forward in order to do it.

I haven't heard anyone call BD "arrogant" myself. This year they simply have a lot of prop emphasis throughout the show with perfectly executed snipets of marching and playing, but nothing sustained and a lot of brass and drumline downtime. Couple this with a less accessible show and you get a lot of " Um ok" type confusion among KNOWLEDGEABLE drum corps aficionados. No beef with the corps. They can do whatever they please. The reward seems to be for more props and less playing and marching - just be sure to do it well. That's where folks like Michael and me kinda scratch our heads a bit.

Look at the scores from last night's top 8 (7/30). The Devils are in the lead... yes. But the answer to the question about the large margin of lead is found in the caption split. Devils are 1st in every caption except percussion. All of the other captions are split 2-5ish between those corps. This equates to a larger margin of lead for the 1st place corps.

2-5 are competing with each other evenly in all captions.... meaning that the corps that competes with BD in one caption will place second. The only way that BD can be beat is if more than one of these corps trade more than one caption with them (i.e. Bluecoats 1st in Percussion, Cadets 1st in Visual, Cavies 1st in Music... etc.)

That is a complicated scenario when you consider that no corps is working ONLY on increasing their ability in one caption alone.

I never considered the Blue Devils arrogant. But I always marveled at how cool and seemingly effortless they appeared on the field. Nothing appears hard for them. I could see how that could be misread as arrogance.

Call it what you want. I don't think it is that far-fetched for the judging community as a whole to talk, discuss, and set things in motion, as they see fit. There is no way BD is ahead of Crown in brass (at all, imo) but definitely not by that margin. Some of the worst music arrangements of the summer by any corps should not be producing rocket high GE Music numbers. Give BD the execution through the roof scores that they deserve, but it should stop there.

I think it is fair to say that they tend to SOUND effortless as well.

I think you are correct in your plausible assessment of where the arrogance claim may have come from.

But I just have to say... I think that you just clearly stated what most everybody else THINKS when they see the Blue Devils and are afraid to say out loud.

If they look and sound this year like they always do...

It really doesn't matter how often they play... or march... it only matters how they look and sound when doing it... and how it all relates to everything else in between.

10 perfect steps from corps X always beats 100 steps with 90 perfect and 10 bad from corps Y.

Unless a corps only takes 10 steps in their whole show, and everyone else takes a thousand. What we have been saying is that there is an issue at the judging level with regards to not acknowledging higher demand corps. Demand is partially scored, supposedly, via exposure to error at some level as well as the ability to maintain playing, marching, and visual. The talent level of the Blue Devils isn't really in question. But they have chosen a show this year that is essentially small fragments with a lot of pause and an absence of prolonged demand until the end of the show in favor of having corps members spend time wheeling tall mirror props around. I think the last five minutes of their show really cooks. But should a marathon runner win a race if they only really try for the last half of it?

Each area of the corps is talented and displays that, but each area is bested by other corps, except for maybe GE- although I think Cavaliers should be higher in GE, but that is an opinion.

A top scoring horn line and percussion needs to be playing the most or at least near the most and obviously the best - they pretty much have their show nailed for sure but take a fair amount of time off, and more than many of the other corps in each area.

The issue is really this; do we all want to reward corps with a judging system that slights demand? How much demand in a show is enough? I don't think anyone is really afraid of saying anything around here or in drum corps in general....except for the judges, because their selection and ability to be chosen for finals etc is political. It's been that way for a very long time --back to the days of Don Angelica.

Most of what you are saying mirrors the kind of subjectivity that you are speaking against.

C'mon... 10 vs. 1000?

You have created an argument that is fully invested in extremes.

Example: "...The issue is really this; do we all want to reward corps with a judging system that slights demand?"

It has also been mentioned that BD's program "is only being rewarded for props."

Your argument is essentially stating that BD doesn't march... everybody else does... marching is the ONLY element worth points (or compositional respect for that matter).

Part of this argument is like that music student that each of us has (those of us that are teachers) that is convinced that easy music is made up of slow tempo, long note values, and large sections of rest... and hard music is exclusively made up of fast tempo, short and frequent note values, and a lack of rest.

A second flaw in your argument is found in the distinction between marching and NOT marching with complete disregard for the transition and timing of marching and not marching (the same can be said for playing). In an ensemble situation this idea is expanded to the interaction between the movement/non-movement - playing/non-playing between various ensemble sections.

A third flaw to your argument is the idea that performing a similar element multiple times within one program somehow elevates the difficulty of the program. While any good composition MAY involve some formal element of recapitulation... it certainly isn't necessary as a proof of anything... it is merely formal.

A fourth flaw in your argument is the idea that endurance is greater than composition in THIS activity. I think that we have found over the years that while drumcorps involves conditioning and endurance building, there is still a time limitation on the program. Perhaps this was a strong element of superiority to drumcorps of the 1980s... but now that we have seen MANY programs filled with the maximum amount of movement and playing (and still not win)... I think we can safely say that endurance is something that we expect from every corps. The long-distance runner example is incongruent to this activity because it is simply inadequate. Again see 'flaw #1'.

Those of you who are ripping this show apart seem to be missing the forest from the trees here. I don't say this in an effort to get anybody to LIKE the show. As I have said... I DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE THE SHOW. My point is that it is being judged fairly... simply because the Blue Devils are performing in the caption areas BETTER (NOT with greater endurance... or longer phrases... but just BETTER) than everybody else (except for percussion... the Bluecoats are winning that one ... for now).

That's all... They are just better. They DO make everything look easy. Probably because everything IS fairly easy for them. What do you do when it all becomes easy? Don't forget that a large number of the individuals in this drumcorps have congregated there after spending some time in (more than likely) nearly every other corps in the circuit. Perhaps these aren't the most 'loyal' people in the world... but they are probably the best talent to be had. And they are getting scored for proving it... again.

As for GE... I can only keep saying that "Appreciation" particularly of "Composition" is and always has been the greater rule when judging. That being said... it would be one thing to say that this BD program is 'repulsive'. But it isn't. It IS entertaining. It may not be as entertaining as ___________________. But that isn't the point. I really thought that we were all done with this after the full-out forum brawls over the Madison Scouts through the late 90's-early 00's.

I'm not about to throw the entire judging system under the bus because my Bluecoats are more entertaining to me than the 2010 Blue Devils.

Of course BD is taking more than ten steps! But you test these type of situations with extremes. Rolling props around really shouldn't help a score, and neither should the props themselves. Why? --- because there is no drum corps skills involved in doing it. ANYONE can make/acquire props and roll them around. The question should be " What is there to judge besides the props?" Or maybe " How do the props work to accentuate skills in marching playing and visual?

And BD is pretty darn good this year. But the demand of their show is not as high as some of their counterparts, because they don't challenge themselves to play and march extended passages relative to some of the other corps. Their show has some cool moments and they cook the end. The first half of their show is designed as a careful warm up. It's a smart thing to do if the judges don't decrement you for it. They don't have the top drumline and they don't have the top hornline either. Neither plays quite enough relative to some peers. There's much more to it than that but its something we can all see and grasp as a truism.

I feel its an issue of judges' positive reinforcement for the wrong reason and wrong show.

Yep you're right.

The props count for nothing. No composition value or general effect. None of that is useful at all in this activity. Nope... it's all about how much marching and playing is done. That's where it is at, and CLEARLY the Blue Devils aren't doing enough of either. It doesn't matter how clean they play or march... they just aren't doing enough of it to win. Quantity IS quality... and quality is nothing else.

All the rest of it... the mirror effects. The stopping/going, counting between, different marching and movement styles, free-form (which we all know isn't really free-from... well, maybe some of us didn't know that), the shot notes out of dead air (perfectly executed every time), all of that program design with different forms of movement happening in different parts of the field at different time working together... RUBBISH!

None of it is really thoughtful anyway... I mean it's just stuff put together.

It's all a waste of time and it distracts from the things that are actually difficult and point worthy.

I get it now.

Thanks for clearing it up!


Now for those despicable judges who CLEARLY have an absolute and fully implemented plan that will reap great benefits for them (thank goodness that they are ALL in agreement)... and we all know what that is... that's why we don't need to talk about it. This is 'politics' (generic) as usual.

It's never been worse than it is now... with SO FEW drumcorps competing.

Ugh... why do I even check these message boards!? or get tickets any more?



:sarcasm mode off:

Now now. Kinda twisting things a bit. All I am saying is that props should be judged on what they contribute and accentuate, not on their mere presence and time spent moving them around, and that demand and exposure to error count. I have said ad nauseum that BD has got a super clean show and a lot of talent. The question is...how low should demand be allowed to go relative to the rest of the field before perfection no longer is enough to receive top score...and more importantly...will future corps in future years look to the BD example and lower their own show demand in response.

PS: Ya buy tix to see all the corps - no one would buy a finals ticket if only one corps was competing. The point here is that DCI is a group of corps, just as we are a group of fans.

PSS: Some of the stuff with the mirrors IS distracting from the marching ---absolutely.

No more than they ever did from the Cadets success with 'prop' shows... or SCV or Star from years ago for that matter.

This is paranoia of a specific style of show taking over. But this has been done before. It has won when the corps was clean... and it has lost when the corps was dirty.

This year... it's clean. Apparently really clean (by the looks of the numbers).

Besides, as I said about BD last year... sometimes those 'props' add much more difficulty to the program than they take away. I still insist that what they did with the chairs last year was considerably difficult (if not dangerous) to pull off well. Just try taking a back step up on a chair and landing back to the ground in time while playing (without breaking your neck... or busting your teeth on the horn). But in that instance... people were on here suggesting that they used the chairs to sit on so that they didn't have to march.

Apart from the dangerous usage of them... just consider the timing aspect of opening/closing and moving them.